Buried Alive


Male Feminists, Kyle’s Payne’s Guilty Plea by pisaquaririse
July 9, 2008, 4:44 pm
Filed under: Antibodies, Grab a shovel, Interconnected!, PUKE, rape extinction

The blogger of A Road Less Traveled, a blog I have read at least a handful of times, has plead guilty to charges of sexual assault.

Amongst his many posts one can find several on sexual violence against women, anti-pornography, and rape culture. The particular incident for which he has plead guilty reads more like an act he would have taken to task than committed.

For all feminists, this story is yet another reminder of how pervasive the problem is. My heart goes out to the young woman involved and all her loved ones in this time of support. Understanding and coming to grips with the effects of sexual violation will be a difficult journey.

Kyle’s actions are repugnant, indeed hypocritical. That he has come to be somewhat of a smaller but useful blog amongst those fighting sexual violence in pornography and prostitution feels a bit of a slap in the face. I would hope people would not take this opportunity to mock and draw conclusions about other women bloggers by aligning this person with their work against sexual violence–work for which many often go poor and hungry. (but alas I am not dumb!–more comments on that in a bit)

I no more pretend that Kyle Payne’s actions speak for the volumes of other males identifying as feminists than it does for radical feminists. There are legit people who do legit work and lead legit lives with respect to ending violence against women.

However, I would like to make a statement about “male feminists” as I never have officially and I do have such opinions. I believe that there are males honestly and with good intentions doing work for women, supporting women, and engaging in feminist discussions. But the ones I feel most comfortable with do not tell me they are feminists. The name means little to nothing to them, the work means the world. Men claiming to be “feminists” actually kind of annoy me. It doesn’t mean the work they do isn’t important but it does signal to me a need to be accepted at a level for which they cannot/should not. They cannot know what it’s like to be a woman fighting her own oppression. To me, that is exactly what a feminist is.

And to that end, I would also like to comment on the males who claim to at least be allies of some sort to feminists bloggers: the many male commenter’s. Several times and places I have seen it: feminists are having a debate/argument on something they feel passionately about and men show up to mock, celebrate or indulge the differences/arguments. That this often goes without comment and more often with allegiance to the men commenter’s is unbelievably damaging in my opinion. No matter how nuanced and real the differences amongst women are they are still movement-stifling. Women have made some of their biggest and best strides when they band together. Men/Privilege showing up to laugh with other women at other women , thus celebrating the divisions, makes me ill. I don’t support it on this blog and that it goes without a peep on feminist blogs across bloglandia rather *astonishes* me.

The only reason I know about Kyle’s case is because I can be more often found reading women blogs for whom I do not always agree with than male bloggers–feminist or not. I seek different perspectives. I got male opinions on feminist issues in college and what a bore. Had I known sooner about this case I would have blogged about it sooner as I, nor any other radical feminist I can think of, would ever support these actions.

To those who have used this news (and will continue to) as a sort of bridge to *a whole bunch of other reasons why radical feminists are X*: not only are you annoyingly predictable (mischaracterizations: It’s what’s for breakfast) but you are also going to detract from the point of this case. Right now, there is a young woman having to make sense of an ugly situation. And there is a male blogger who needs to be held accountable for those who he has hurt and lied to. Continuing to show women have it in them to agree on solidarity in the face of such charges sends much better messages than using other women’s troubles as a platform for a tangential debate. I would much prefer to come together to take a stand against these actions than have it feed yet another pointless radical feminists vs. everyone else debacle.

Thank you to Renegade Evolution, BelleDame and Eleanor’s Trousers for giving this story the attention it deserves.

***UPDATE***  The following information I received in e-mail from the journalist who covered Kyle’s story in the Iowa Independent:

Some individuals who have commented to the various postings on Payne have stated that he is scheduled to have an “open sentencing” on Aug. 11 at the Buena Vista County Courthouse, and that anyone who attends will have an opportunity to speak. This is not totally correct.

An “open sentencing” in the state of Iowa means that the public can attend, but not that the public can speak. While it always looks good to have people show up in support of the prosecution — and I’d personally really like to see some strong support in the courtroom — the fact is that not everyone is going to be able to speak.

For those who have a unique interest in the case… for instance, have served as advocates or can somehow speak with authority as to how horrible Payne’s actions were… get in touch with me.

If you want to share your (civil) thoughts about this incident prior to sentencing, your best bet is to write to the judge that will preside over the sentencing:
District Court Judge Don E. Courtney
Buena Vista County Courthouse
215 E Fifth St.
Storm Lake, IA 50588

As a final note, there has been some discussion about Payne being charged with child pornography. This is not a charge he faces from the state of Iowa.

– Lynda Waddington

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88 Comments so far
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P: Thanks for blogging on this. I may not agree with the Radical/Anti Porn folk, but this guy is just SCUM, and the way he used the R/AP agenda and CONTINUES to deny/take responsibility for his horrible actions is just disgusting. Not even I would judge the R/AP movement by this creep. Agree with y’all or not, I do think the majority of R/AP folk have good intentions and are doing what they think is right. Kyle Payne has no such things and knows what he did is wrong.

Comment by Renegade Evolution

Yeah, honestly, I just happened to stumble across the guy and thought he seemed kind of skeevy (although didn’t imagine anything like this); but what sent me into red alert was stuff like this in one of his entries (from a conference he apparently attended while charges were pending, p.s.):

“Bob Jensen made an important point to the group as our time together drew to a close: “Not everyone gets better.” This is certainly true of survivors of sexual violence, who are far too often met with frustration, even blame, from loved ones who simply cannot understand why they haven’t “put the pieces back together.” And I think it might be a fair statement regarding anyone doing anti-rape or anti-pornography work. It is the most heartbreaking experience for me as an advocate not to be able to tell a survivor that everything will be fine, that with the right amount of support and determination, she will be able to move on with her life, and in some sort of meaningful way, feel okay. The reality is that not everyone gets better, and whether we call it the “rape culture” or “porn culture,” we are living in a society that actively prevents healing from taking place.”

***
Excuse the fuck out of me, but -who- appointed these dudes experts on which rape victims will and won’t -get better?- That shit’s fucking creepy even without the now revelation of,

“Gee, Kyle, maybe they don’t get better because FUCKSTAINS LIKE YOU ABUSE THEM AND SHATTER THEIR TRUST ALL OVER AGAIN, YOU WORTHLESS PIECE OF SHIT!”

Because, I mean, if “Jane Doe” turns out to be one of the women he actually “counseled,” the rage just increases fourfold. There are names for that sort of compound abuse; flaying’s too good for him.

Comment by belledame222

I had not even heard of him until today on a forum. Of course it’s nothing new for misogynists to be attracted to areas where they will have privy to personal salacious information, while masquerading as a ’carer’ Life long health worker here.

Yeah fuck off Kyle.

Comment by sparklematrix

He’s a smooth one. He’s still blogging and even vlogging; the latest is from 7/4; the newspaper article about the guilty plea was 7/2. Check it. Yeah, I can see how people bought his act: he comes off as–well, see for yourself:

Comment by belledame222

Ye gads I’ve just clicked on Renegade’s link and look at this what he signed.

http://www.reformsexoffenderlaws.org/statement.php

Comment by sparklematrix

Chiming in to agree with the thanks for posting. 🙂

Comment by Trin

Sparkle- Gross, isn’t it? I’m not surprised though, after all, considering what he had on his computer…

Comment by Renegade Evolution

Yeah, saw that. Wonder -when- he signed it.

This really interests me, though, from a commenter at Eleanor’s Trousers:

” Darren Johnson
July 8, 2008 at 11:02 pm

Any one who lives in Storm Lake or close to Storm Lake should go to this sick S.O.B sentancing on 11-Aug-2008 at the Buena Vista County Courthouse. Payne has asked for open sentancing. This means the Judge will listen to all that want to talk then decide what the sentance should be. He needs to do time.”

***

So, basically, if I’m reading this right, he’s throwing himself on the mercy of his peers. Hence the trying to keep a low profile (I take it), the acting like everything’s normal, the charm: he doesn’t want the pitchforks and torches, he wants to show up there and be all “aw shucks” and hope for a slap on the wrist. Is what I’m getting from that.

Seems like it’s probably worked for him in the past; apparently there are other charges pending from the university he’s at–child porn on the computer, alleged by the commenters at ET, although that’s not official yet apparently–and the same commenters were also pretty clear that this is an ongoing problem at the university, shit like this getting swept under the carpet.

He’s 22 and clearly an ambitious little thing.

I…would not let this one go.

Comment by belledame222

“the way he used the R/AP agenda and CONTINUES to deny/take responsibility for his horrible actions is just disgusting.”

Yes, exactly–I am interested in seeing how this matter is addressed (by him) as his recent blog posts are rather benign.
It is a little nauseating to think of how he would have carried on his blogging had the news never leaked.

“I do think the majority of R/AP folk have good intentions and are doing what they think is right.”

I would extend this to say the majority of feminist bloggers are doing what they think to be right. Which is why, perhaps, the emotions run high: the intentions and heart are there. But it is important, I believe, to make efforts to come together when possible. So yes, I agree.

“Excuse the fuck out of me, but -who- appointed these dudes experts on which rape victims will and won’t -get better?”

In Kyle’s case, and as you allude to in the next comment, maybe some claim expertise because they *know they will be there time and again to knock the women down with more abuse*?

“I mean, if “Jane Doe” turns out to be one of the women he actually “counseled,” the rage just increases fourfold.”

Was not aware he was *counseling*… 😦

Comment by pisaquaririse

Sparkle- Gross, isn’t it? I’m not surprised though, after all, considering what he had on his computer…

Yeah, the pedophilia…OMG He’s a bit transparant isn’t he? ffs.

And I’ve just watched 30 secs of that video and I need to stab my eyes out with some bamboo.

Comment by sparklematrix

Welcome Trin–NP!

Comment by pisaquaririse

“It is a little nauseating to think of how he would have carried on his blogging had the news never leaked.”

He’s still doing it even now. And yeah, he’s a–well, this is his resume:

Meet the Blogger

Kyle is a social justice educator, writer, and activist. Much of his work is concerned with putting a stop to violence against women. For years Kyle has served as an advocate for survivors of sexual violence and other forms of abuse, in addition to promoting what he calls “a more just and life-affirming culture of sexuality” through activism and education. As a researcher, Kyle has studied the feminist anti-pornography movement and is particularly interested in men’s roles in confronting pornography and the rape culture. In addition to his pro-feminist work, he is involved with anti-racist, free speech, peace, and anti-globalization movements.

Education

2008 – M.S. Degree in Adult Education
Capella University, Minneapolis, MN

2007 – B.A. Degree in Philosophy & Religion,
Social Consciousness, and Women’s Studies
Buena Vista University, Storm Lake, IA

College Activities

Rape Crisis Advocate (4 years)
Editorialist (4 years)
Webmaster (4 years, several organizations)
Resident Advisor (3 years)
Student Radio (3 years, several positions)
Academic Assistant (2 years)
VP of Service Learning (1 year)
Wellness Education Specialist (1 year)
Career Peer (1 year)
Student Senator (1 year)

College Honors and Awards

Male Leader of the Year Award, BVU (2007)
William H. Cumberland Research Award, BVU (2006)
Willard Stief Award for Community Living, BVU (2006)
Nominee, Senior of the Year, BVU (2007)
Nominee, Volunteer of the Year, BVU (2006, 2007)
Alpha Chi Honor Society (2006-present)
Dean’s Fellowship, BVU (2003-2007)
Who’s Who in American Colleges and Universities (2006)
Campus Compact Civic Engagement Fellowship (2006)

***

I’m not clear whether the “rape crisis advocacy” actually involves talking directly to women who’ve just been raped, but it’s close enough to be really repulsive. He doesn’t just do anti-porn activism, at minimum: he’s very involved in anti-rape. And as R.A. at the college, I gather he’s acted as de facto “advisor,” you know. (Also apparently wrote people up for underage drinking and that sort of thing, according to one of the commenters at Eleanor’s) Bottom line: yeah, he’s been in a position of authority in a “helper” way, not just a political ally, and probably involving vulnerable young women at one point or another, mhm.

Comment by belledame222

““Excuse the fuck out of me, but -who- appointed these dudes experts on which rape victims will and won’t -get better?”

In Kyle’s case, and as you allude to in the next comment, maybe some claim expertise because they *know they will be there time and again to knock the women down with more abuse*?”

The thing is… I’m not entirely convinced he was just using it as a front. I initially read his anti-porn-dom as a kind of “STOP ME BEFORE I KILL AGAIN” from a Dahmer type. I.e. that he has/had a destructive obsession, thought that maybe immersing himself in Dworkin and Jensen could cure him, etc. only to have it all explode in assault.

Then again, given the child porn thing… maybe it all really just was a way to look non-threatening to women that felt they needed a feminist male shoulder to cry on. I don’t know.

Comment by Trin

Oh, and between the original article about the charges, back in February, and the actual guilty plea, which was a week ago, he’s apparently attended at least one conference (I think the one with Jensen alluded to above), and written posts like this:

http://kylepayne.wordpress%5Bdot%5D com/2008/05/08/reaching-men/

If we are serious about rape prevention – in other words, not rape avoidance, defense, or something along those lines – we need to begin with where rape begins, in men’s decisions to assert dominance over women through sexuality. Ultimately we are talking about subverting patriarchy as a system, but of course, it is largely men’s choices that maintain that system. We are talking about taking rape away from men, along with their unearned advantages in this society, and of course, their unjust (as if there were any other kind) dominance over women…

In my work with men and through my own critical reflection, I have become very familiar with a paradox of power. Simply put, men have a great deal of control in our society – and could, for instance, stop rape. As the old Penn State urinal cake saying goes, “You hold the power to stop rape in your hands.” And seriously, guys, you really do.”

***

Also, hate to say it, but the post of his that was included in the Anti-Porn Carnival, it was written in January, but it’s from a May edition of the carnival.

http://carnivalagainstpornography%5Bdot%5Dwordpress.com/2008/05/27/third-carnival-against-pornography-and-prostituti­on/

Kyle Payne shares his experiences at the Stop Porn Culture conference in the US in Stop Porn Culture Training

**

I mean, I think up till now mostly people didn’t know who the hell he was. The only posts other than his own I found googling his name were the ones at Eleanor’s Trousers. He has like ten links in Technorati. He’s definitely acting as though nothing’s changed, and to a certain degree it looks like that works for him (he still has “you go, dude” comments on that vlog entry”). But…

Comment by belledame222

trin: I dunno to what degree his right hand is aware of what the left hand is doing, all I know is he puts the EEP in CREEPY.

Comment by belledame222

“Yes, exactly–I am interested in seeing how this matter is addressed (by him) as his recent blog posts are rather benign.”

Also, I doubt he will address it. I mean, in one post that may well be about the child porn or even the charges we’re discussion here, he basically says “You all don’t know me”:

http://kylepa yne.wordpre ss.com/200 8/02/15/a-di fferent-ki nd-of-pain/

“I want to be very careful how I share these words with you. Given the numerous accusations and attacks I have received lately, I am finding it very easy to respond in ways that are defensive, confrontational, and antagonistic. While those behaviors might be appropriate if I was enlisting in a battle for my place in the hierarchy of our dominator culture, they are neither relevant or productive in this context. Furthermore, I worry that these actions would be interpreted as yet another reason not to listen to a word I have to say.”

Somehow, Kyle, I don’t *really* think you’re all that concerned about how much of a dominator you are…

Comment by Trin

“He’s still doing it even now.”

Yes–I mean in terms of all this “anti sexual violence” tripe. I don’t think he will be doing that kind of blogging anytime soon. (But I could be terribly naive)

“And as R.A. at the college, I gather he’s acted as de facto “advisor,” you know.”

Yes, well that makes good sense. I did a year’s stint as an R.A. for my first University and there were several informal counseling situations I had with different students. They were only with females, however, there *were* quite a few male RA’s who liked being sought after for advice by the female students. It was usually an excuse to flirt by either party and made the whole male R.A. to female student thing that much more predatory. I discouraged it as much as possible. Several RA’s were known for predatory behavior.

A year was the minimum you had to do where I attended and a year was *all I could stand*.

Comment by pisaquaririse

“trin: I dunno to what degree his right hand is aware of what the left hand is doing, all I know is he puts the EEP in CREEPY.”

Yeah, that. I was just saying a lot of people seem to take it as that his anti-porn-dom was a lie. And I took it, at least initially, as a two-sided obsession: on the one hand, the dark, messed-up, creepy true self he had that doesn’t seem to CARE how he treats women. And then the other side of him knowing that he should be better, but not really understanding why in a way that takes *women* seriously as people rather than taking “fix me, fix me” seriously, and using anti-porn-dom as an attempt to purge himself and failing.

(NB: I don’t think all anti-porn points of view are prone to being used this way, though I do think some can be.)

Comment by Trin

Well, I think he’s not entirely unlike, say, Larry Craig, you know, or a Temperance preacher who’s an alcoholic. Except for: sexual assault and (alleged, still) child porn, kind of a bigger problem for -other people- than getting caught hooking up with some guy.

I think he’ll probably keep blogging and acting as he did before as long as he can get away with it. I’ll be interested to see what happens with the sentencing, for sure.

Comment by belledame222

Also, I really get the impression he has already gotten away with quite a lot. Yeah, commenters at Eleanor’s Trousers that apparently know him have come out of the woodwork to say they never liked or trusted the guy (hope they’ll show up at the hearing). But, all those awards, one of which was apparently given to him -after- the university found shit on his computer;

and also, I can’t help noting: the original bail was for over $11,000. Which apparently he posted easily and then went on to fly off to some conference. So, you know, I am thinking: golden boy’s got some resources protecting him, there, and he’s feeling confident that they’ll continue to do so, or at least that he can brazen his way through this.

Comment by belledame222

“Thank you to Renegade Evolution, BelleDame and Eleanor’s Trousers for giving this story the attention it deserves.”

Seconded. And thanks to you too, Pisaquari.

Comment by Debi Crow

“Well, I think he’s not entirely unlike, say, Larry Craig, you know, or a Temperance preacher who’s an alcoholic. Except for: sexual assault and (alleged, still) child porn, kind of a bigger problem for -other people- than getting caught hooking up with some guy.”

Yeah. And then there’s the question of how hypocrites think of themselves. Back when I was one, I saw my sexual behavior as a kind of falling off the wagon/being unable to resist the evil allure of BDSM. But, well, people like this, who are society’s golden boys, may be different. Because they do have a kind of entitlement I didn’t. So for them it may be “well, I’m not *really* gay if I just nip over to the restroom on occasion.” “well, I’m not really a pornographer if she never knew I took the pictures.”

Except that, well, this Payne kid was consistently creepy, and does say “Hey, if I defend myself I’ll sound like a run of the mill male dominator of women” so… yeah, more likely my first read wasn’t right, and he knew full well what he was doing.

I guess I just don’t want to believe it. It’s easier to think someone’s conflicted and dramaful than to think, wait, maybe this person actually was just trolling for victims.

Comment by Trin

Were we writing these at the same time?

Comment by Nine Deuce

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I’ve already seen people making weird (and stupid) connections between this guy and the whole of the anti-porn/anti-prostitution movement. I’ve even heard suggestions that radical feminists will support this gutter ball because he’s “one of us.” Unbelievable.

Comment by Nine Deuce

I read this earlier and couldn’t find words, intending to come back when I could adequately express myself. I still can’t. I hope this guy shits a three-foot pine cone. This is fucking unbelievable.

Comment by Anji

I mean, look, I don’t think there’s any universe in which this behavior–

it’s–even if he was coldly and deliberately trolling for victims, I think it’s still pretty clear that he has to believe his own lies about himself, at least temporarily. It–I mean, it’s interesting, how the minds of people like this work; it’s just sort of also beside the point. Ultimately the results matter; and he’s enough of sound mind that he thoroughly deserves the book thrown at him, and I’ve absolutely no sympathy at all.

Comment by belledame222

I had no idea this had happened! As another survivor of male abuse, I am truly shocked and sickened! I agree that his actions are indeed repugnant & hypocritical an this has fuck-all to do with OUR radical feminism!

To those who have used this news (and will continue to) as a sort of bridge to *a whole bunch of other reasons why radical feminists are X*: not only are you annoyingly predictable (mischaracterizations: It’s what’s for breakfast) but you are also going to detract from the point of this case. Right now, there is a young woman having to make sense of an ugly situation. And there is a male blogger who needs to be held accountable for those who he has hurt and lied to.

Is that so, Pisaquari? (as I don’t look at those blogs anymore) Well if it is, it is so fucked-up that some of the pro-porn crowd’s blogs use this as another mischaracterization of us. Are They, honestly?

Not even I would judge the R/AP movement by this creep. Agree with y’all or not, I do think the majority of R/AP folk have good intentions and are doing what they think is right.

Huh? Well, thanks RE. Yeah, oh, please do not judge us ’cause of that scumbag.

FFS, I would never ever condone such a behavior. Ugh, that poor young woman! 😦

That fucking guy has been fucking deleted from my blogroll… Fucking bastard! 😡

This now makes me think: What kind of male ally can we trust? Or more exactly: Should we trust any male who says he is an “ally”? I think we should be extremely careful of male allies in the future, as some of them might not be genuine ones (as in the example of Kyle).

What have we fucking done to men for them to fucking treat us that way? What had I fucking done to my ex-partners for them to fucking treat me that way? (Sorry, I derailed… )

When male “allies” are like this, all they should do is GET THE FUCK OUT OF OUR MOVEMENT!!!

Comment by Maggie Hays

Sorry I didn’t mean to wink (etimocon) in the previous post, WTF? I must have mistype something…

Oh, fucking me! Pisaquari, can you please edit & (just) remove the winking etimocon from my previous comment? ‘Cause a wink was the very last thing on earth I wanted to express in that comment (WTF?)

Comment by Maggie Hays

WHAT I MEANT TO SAY WAS:

What have we fucking done to men for them to fucking treat us that way? What had I fucking done to my ex-partners for them to fucking treat me that way? (Sorry, I derailed… )

FFS, WTF? Damned computers! I fucking mistype something and it suddenly becomes a fucking “wink”. I feel like this look like it awfully destroys all the angry emotions I wanted to express (I was expressing) in this post… Shit! 😦

Comment by Maggie Hays

WHAT I MEANT TO SAY WAS:

What have we fucking done to men for them to fucking treat us that way? What had I fucking done to my ex-partners for them to fucking treat me that way? (Sorry, I derailed… )

FFS, WTF? Damned computers! I fucking mistype something and it suddenly becomes a fucking “wink”. I feel like this look like it awfully destroys all the angry emotions I wanted to express (I was expressing) in this post… Shit! 😦

Comment by Maggie Hays

I hope it’s pretty clear by now that I don’t blame anyone for Kyle but Kyle.

Comment by belledame222

Maggie, what people might be referencing is something I said when this first broke. Which was, basically, that I’m leery of some of anti-porn radical feminism because I think it can attract people like Kyle here: people who really DO see the world in terms of men dominating women, but who are actually assholes. So they can say “I get that male dominance is bad, but this feminist way is HARD and requires so much WORK and I backslide.” Which I took to be Kyle’s way of looking at his own behavior.

So it’s not that I thought that this corner of the blogosphere wouldn’t condemn him, but rather that I think that sometimes the whole “we need to radically overhaul the way we all see and do sexuality!” message I see in anti-porn feminism is a very tall order. And I think a zealot who fails to live up to the tall orders he’s invested himself in can be a dangerous person.

And AT FIRST I took Kyle’s investment in anti-pornography radical feminism to be that — a passionate attempt to excise his own demons that wasn’t working (and that in my own view I doubt ever WOULD work.)

Now that I have read more and given it more thought, I no longer am at all sure that’s his deal.

But yeah, I did not think anyone would condone his behavior at all.

Comment by Trin

Look, the point is that misogynist fuckers are going to take advantage of ANY movement (whether it’s anti-porn or pro-porn) and try to use it to their benefit.
I say, kick men COMPLETELY out of the picture. It’s not enough for them to rape us and beat us and kill us outside of dinky grassroots radical feminist circles? Then fuck ’em, I say. The problem isn’t female feminists (no matter what their opinions are), the problem is MEN. Period.
I am just so sick. Sick of all of this. What do we have to do? Fucking strangle to death all of the men and boys above the age of 11 or 12? What the hell is wrong with them?!
My heart goes out to the woman who’s life and soul have been violated and hurt by this disgusting excuse for a human being.

Comment by Lara

I’d never heard of this guy until just now, but wow, what a cowardly, sick, manipulative piece of shit he is. Perhaps pretending to be an ally of radical feminists makes him feel better about himself, but it won’t make radical feminists accept him and his behaviour. I, like you Pisaquari, am very suspicious of men who label themselves feminists as they often seem to charge in to feminist women’s conversation, mock, deride and derail and refuse to acknowledge this behaviour when called on it (my posts about this subject are to be found on my blog under the heading on the right that says ‘the sexism of our allies’).

Thank you to all bloggers to have broken this story.

Comment by Laurelin

Holy fucking crap, he was a *rape crisis counsellor*? WTF?! I have a hard time myself accepting the idea of a male rape counsellor for female survivors of rape (but obviously this is not up to me), but this guy?!

I can’t help but think this arsehole was interested in hearing the details of sexual violence.

I feel sick to my soul.

Comment by Laurelin

Speaking the truth on Kyle is working, I googled him a little while ago and posts telling the truth about him (including this one) were pretty high in the search results. I mean, I know I can’t ask y’all for anything, but if I could, I would ask that everyone keep writing about Kyle Payne and linking to all those who have (and if I’ve missed anyone who has in my round ups, please let me know so I can include them!) Let’s keep the truth about Kyle Payne easy to find. The idea of the guy speaking anywhere, to anyone, about rape and sexual assault makes my skin crawl.

Comment by Renegade Evolution

–All comments that were stuck in the mod que have now been published. Sorry for the delay.

Comment by pisaquaririse

Thanks, Pisaquari, for the editing in removing that silly “wink”.

Comment by Maggie Hays

Also, want to reiterate again that Kyle’s motivations to involve himself on the radfem anti porn side of this debate do not thus devalue that perspective (he may have read Dworkin but it’s doubtful he was *listening*)–sexual abusers run the gamut on all sides of the porn wars.

Comment by pisaquaririse

[…] herself in my eyes to be an unapologetic bigot (though I will not speak for her commenters), check this out at Pisaquari’s […]

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NP Maggie–I really don’t get why the end of the parenthetical statements usually become winks. Kind of annoying—especially with some of the statements I’ve made in them. The wink just makes it all wrong.

Comment by pisaquaririse

“Look, the point is that misogynist fuckers are going to take advantage of ANY movement (whether it’s anti-porn or pro-porn) and try to use it to their benefit.”

This is very true, Lara. There’s misunderstanding of what people on the pro- side mean too, like assumptions that we all are always up for anything because we must think everything is fun, be desperate for approval and therefore never critical of anything anyone does, etc. Which is just as much a distortion of what we’re saying as this guy’s hypocrisy is a distortion of what you’re saying.

Comment by Trin

What he did is horrible, and I hope that all the blow-back from his crime affects him alone and not any radfem women bloggers. Many of the latter are thinking very seriously how to think about professed male allies, and they are generating some fascinating ideas in the process. Thanks, pisaquaririse, Nine Deuce, and all the rest of you who are considering the implications.

Comment by Level Best

“Now that I have read more and given it more thought, I no longer am at all sure that’s his deal.”

Yeah, the more I learn about this guy, the more I am thinking that the Ted Bundy analogy (who was also a rape crisis counselor) is maybe apt. He’s just glib as fuck, for one thing.

Which, and who knows -what- all goes into that psychology, I mean volumes have been written, but…put it this way, I definitely would never, ever, ever trust an “oh, I’m so sorry, I have seen the light and I repent NOW” from this guy.

I just wish the charges against him were stronger. Maybe the other stuff still pending will come up separately, though; that’d be good. I just think that even with a criminal record, he’s gonna find a way to manipulate himself into some other position of authority, however minor, pretty quickly, and hurt someone else.

Comment by belledame222

emoticon: I think if you put a semicolon in front of the end of a parenthetical bracket, it turns into a winkie. and a regular colon in front of a ) is a happy face. very annoying if you didn’t intend it, yes.

Comment by belledame222

I know it says on my blog header that I’m “rarely speechless” but this is one of those occasions.

I cannot find the words to express my horror at what this man has done. But I will think more about it as I calm down and – “I would ask that everyone keep writing about Kyle Payne and linking to all those who have […] Let’s keep the truth about Kyle Payne easy to find.” – yes, I’ll be blogging about this.

Comment by witchy-woo

when you do witchy, I’ll link it, I have a good sized list over at my place.

Comment by Renegade Evolution

This is the reason that men need to be kept out of services for vulnerable women. Cos there are millions of men like this around – they will gravitate to where vulnerable women are. There are sometimes (much more rarely) exploitative women as well, but services need to be women only.

Rape Crisis counsellor – WTF??????

Comment by Polly Styrene

“This is the reason that men need to be kept out of services for vulnerable women. Cos there are millions of men like this around – they will gravitate to where vulnerable women are.”

Yeah Polly and quite ‘conveniently’ use radical feminism as a shield. I mean how many paedo’s use religion as a guise for ‘mr nice guy’

Comment by sparklematrix

[…] Trousers – she’s been on this since February Shakesville Cara at Feministe Purtek Buried Alive Nine Deuce And a full list can be found at Renegade Evolution. GallingGalla Renee at Womanist […]

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Hold on, I was so upset by this whole thing that I think I’ve been missing a crucially important point here:

I think we should keep in mind that Kyle Payne WAS (in spite of all his claims to “support radical feminism” ) secretly PRO-PORNOGRAPHY.

As I read from that story, he used pornography. He also probably used child porn. He sexually assaulted a woman and made pornography of her. All this clearly shows a secret porn-sick mind while pretending to be a “pro-feminist”.

Now, in all this, again I can find a strong link between porn and sexual coercion I’d been researching about:

http://www.againstpornography.org/effectsandharms.html

Of course, Kyle ain’t the only porn user who coerced a woman (or women/girls) into sex. There are so many of them out there! And most of those porn-using sexual abusing men aren’t into any kind of feminism at all.

Yeah, that’s right. Radical feminism is certainly NOT the problem here,’cause men can choose to benefit from male privilege and deceive women in so many areas of life & society anyway.

Socialization to masculinity and the use of pornography (woman-hatred propaganda that is so awfully condoned) ARE the problems, the key factors for abusive behavior.

I still believe that we have to be very careful of male allies in the future though, try to find a way of making sure they are genuine or something like that. But how can we?

Male supremacy is so deeply entrenched that I’m being skeptical here… and pessimistic for now…

Comment by Maggie Hays

Pisaquari, please delete that damn “wink” again from my above post, that okay?

emoticon: I think if you put a semicolon in front of the end of a parenthetical bracket, it turns into a winkie. and a regular colon in front of a ) is a happy face. very annoying if you didn’t intend it, yes.

Yep, That’s absolutely right…

Comment by Maggie Hays

“I think we should keep in mind that Kyle Payne WAS (in spite of all his claims to “support radical feminism” ) secretly PRO-PORNOGRAPHY.”

Not necessarily. Maggie. I mean, I’m inclined to think he actually was, that his anti-porn stuff was just a front. But there are a lot of, say, anti-gay folks who are as vehement as they are about hating “that stuff” because they’re really lusting after it or even doing it themselves.

So I think it’s *possible* that Payne could have been “anti-porn” in the same sense: “the Serpent tempteth me, and I Do Eat.”

Although I think it’s far more likely he just pretended to be a radical feminist to prey on people, I also don’t think it makes much sense to speculate on whether he was “pro-porn.” Really, *we don’t know that.*

Also, as someone who *does* think of herself as “pro-porn,” or at least isn’t against it, I really don’t like the idea of someone linking me with a user of child porn, thanks. I really don’t think that users of child porn are interested in sex workers’ rights, in attempting to weed out exploitation in production, in attempting to make sure wide varieties of material are available that focus on more than the stereotypical male audience, etc.

Not the same thing at all.

I don’t mind you thinking people like me are wrong, even dangerously misguided. But people who enjoy watching children get hurt are not the same thing, so please don’t conflate us.

Comment by Trin

I think we should keep in mind that Kyle Payne WAS (in spite of all his claims to “support radical feminism” ) secretly PRO-PORNOGRAPHY.

As I read from that story, he used pornography. He also probably used child porn. He sexually assaulted a woman and made pornography of her. All this clearly shows a secret porn-sick mind while pretending to be a “pro-feminist”.

Now, in all this, again I can find a strong link between porn and sexual coercion I’d been researching about:

http://www.againstpornography.org/effectsandharms.html

Of course, Kyle ain’t the only porn user who coerced a woman (or women/girls) into sex. There are so many of them out there! And most of those porn-using sexual abusing men aren’t into any kind of feminism at all.

I maintain!

Comment by Maggie Hays

[…] Pisaquari […]

Pingback by Oh, the hypocrisy. « Miss Nomered

What Trinity said.

Comment by Renegade Evolution

I agree totally with JusticeWalks on this one:

http://walkwithjustice.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/meaningless-distinctions/

The point is, that this guy is a rapist, not whether or not he “identified” as a feminist.

If women want to be so optimistic (and, I think, gullible) as to invest any degree of trust in a male because he says he is a “feminist”, then they’ll have to learn, won’t they?

All this brouhaha proves is that most women are so heavily invested in the concept of “some good men” that they are willing to entirely distort their perspective of what is the far greater violation of women, namely, rape.

Once again, it makes the desire for male “goodness” and the pre-eminence of that desire amongst most females, more important than what actually *happens* to females.

If the facts of this case point to anything, they underscore that males of *any* sort are not to be trusted in matters of sexual assault.

Apologists for the male of the species will just have to get over it.

Comment by Mary Sunshine

I don’t think Kyle or anyone should be allowed to get away with blaming either radical feminism or porn or his genitalia or male training or -anything- but his own sorry self for his actions, period.

Meanwhile: it gets better: he’s writing a book, or was intending to, as noted here:

http://offourpedestals.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/and-now-a-kyle-payne-fact-sheet/

” But this book in particular will be a compilation of all the stories shared with me by survivors. Women (of a variety of different backgrounds) raped, beaten, groped, stalked, threatened, drugged, coerced, tortured, pissed on, and emotionally abused by men (of a variety of different backgrounds).”

Comment by belledame222

The guy was into porn, that’s a fact! HE WAS USING PORNOGRAPHY. Just like so many of them out there who aren’t into feminism. And some of them also do rape women.

Comment by Maggie Hays

Maggie…

*

oh, you know what, never mind.

Comment by belledame222

Sigh.

Kyle Payne is an abusive jerk who, IMHO, probably used and twisted feminism and anti pornography tennants to his own whims probably to get people, specifically women, to trust him. He then used, abused, and betrayed that trust in the worst sort of ways. He twisted a philosophy that, agree with it or not, I think most people who are involved with enter into with good intentions, and he used it to do horrific things. Things which he takes no responsibility for whatsoever, and he continues on like he has done absolutely nothing wrong. Anti Porn Radical Feminism didn’t do any of this, Kyle Payne did. Porn didn’t do it either. Kyle Payne did. The blame belongs on Kyle Payne. He is the type of man who is a danger to women, period.

Comment by Renegade Evolution

I mean, look at this:

“One day I’ll write a book. Well, hopefully several. But this book in particular will be a compilation of all the stories shared with me by
survivors. Women (of a variety of different backgrounds) raped,beaten, groped, stalked, threatened, drugged, coerced, tortured,
pissed on, and emotionally abused by men (of a variety of different backgrounds). It always strikes me, when listing these abuses, that
the words are almost meaningless out of context. Maybe that’s part of the problem. Why would we take men’s violence seriously if we cannot begin to understand, on an emotional level, its effects on the lived experiences of women? I would never try to publish this book – these are not my stories to tell. But sometimes I tinker with the idea of creating something – maybe a work of art – that could somehowdemonstrate to people that this problem is real. That the “shocking,”
“disgusting,” and “evil” stories they hear about barely scratch the surface.” – Kyle Payne

That’s Kyle’s pornography right there. His own little personal collection of human suffering gleened from real women who probably trusted him and thought him to be an ally. This guy is pure scum, he has hurt women, and he delights in whatever self-torturing kick he gets out of liking hurting women while saying how horrible it is. Kyle Payne is not representitive of anyone or anything other than himself.

Comment by Renegade Evolution

Great comment by Mary.

Comment by helzeph

“That’s Kyle’s pornography right there. His own little personal collection of human suffering gleened from real women who probably trusted him and thought him to be an ally. This guy is pure scum, he has hurt women, and he delights in whatever self-torturing kick he gets out of liking hurting women while saying how horrible it is. Kyle Payne is not representitive of anyone or anything other than himself.”

Yes. And my only point is that I think that the discussion of whether the stuff he used is representative of the industry is, well, beside the point.

He mouthed the tenets of radical feminism — well enough to deceive people on both sides until we heard about this. He doesn’t represent radical feminism, we all agree.

He used pornography — the kind of pornography *everyone*, on both sides, finds repugnant. He used survivors’ stories *as* pornography. That’s not representative of my side *either*.

So let’s *none of us* hold up this guy as what’s wrong with the other side, ‘kay? This guy is scum, plain and simple. It doesn’t matter which side he’s “on.”

(And honestly? I’d say the side he’s actually on is neither yours nor ours, Maggie, but rather his own.)

Comment by Trin

Maggie, please stop shouting at people. RE and Trin are making really good points.

Mary Sunshine, however, made the best point, I think – and everyone please pop over to the JusticeWalks post she linked too and give it a good read, it’s amazing. x

Comment by Debi Crow

Pisaquari, thanks so much for writing about this and highlighting this nasty asshole’s disgusting abusive behavior. It’s truly horrifying.

I see lots of people who believe in very different things in this thread, but I think we all agree that this rapist asshole is, well, a rapist asshole! Really disgusting.

Comment by buggle

Maggie, please stop shouting at people. RE and Trin are making really good points.

Sorry, I just lost control… I’m glad Ren & Trin acknowledge that he used porn…

I strongly believe that there is a causality between his porn use & the assault he perpetrated.

Comment by Maggie Hays

I mean I believe there is a link between porn use and sexual coercion obviously…

And Radical feminists never wanted a man like that to be part of their movement. 😦

He doesn’t represent radical feminism, we all agree.

Yep.

His own little personal collection of human suffering gleened from real women who probably trusted him and thought him to be an ally.

Yeah, and that’s real depressing. 😦

Comment by Maggie Hays

Maggie…

*

oh, you know what, never mind.

Yeah, nevermind either…

Comment by Maggie Hays

“Sorry, I just lost control… I’m glad Ren & Trin acknowledge that he used porn…

I strongly believe that there is a causality between his porn use & the assault he perpetrated.”

Maggie: Thanks very much for being civil about this, I appreciate it. 🙂

And while I probably have vastly different views as you do about pornography depicting adults, I agree that this guy was, well, “into” actual degradation of actual people (including actual children, who could never consent to being in porn, even in pro-porn utopia), and that looking at it may well have either fueled his lust or given him an excuse (I hear “Well, but ALL men are dominators! How can I resist?” in what he says — particularly when he stresses that all men can be rapists. He’s highly likely to be thinking of himself there.)

So yeah, this guy’s porn use? Creepy in extremis, as I’m sure everyone agrees.

Comment by Trin

Also, thanks Debi. 🙂

Comment by Trin

Taking up for Maggie here–I think part of her insistence on the porn point was to make sure these actions were *not* as viewed as another isolated incident wherein *another* abuser was simply labeled a crazy man. That happens a lot in media coverage and it’s a bit lazy to throw the whole thing off as some “that’s just how he is” diagnosis.

But I don’t see any Grand Disagreement on his porn use.

As to him being Pro or Anti Porn I’m at a pretty big stand still. I could see him going either way and since he has clearly demonstrated himself a liar I don’t know that a definitve answer will ever be found. Some people get off being against something which they do b/c it adds an extra arousal–denial works too.
But who knows, he may have a whole other blog and persona where he takes a completely different stance on pornography. The web has a host of possibilities.

So all I’m saying is: we don’t need a whole bunch of analysis to find out we will disagree on the exact causes of this behavior. Yes, I am asking everyone to tip toe around the Big White Elephant.

The fact of the matter is if I have to moderate the porn warz right now it will give me bad gas and I will close comments.

No one wants either.

Happy Commenting! 🙂

Comment by pisaquaririse

I’m not interested in a porn war, I’m interested in what Ren’s doing to make sure this doesn’t all blow over and get forgotten about in a few days, which is no doubt what Mr Payne is hoping will happen. If I had the energy I would be doing that myself, but I haven’t so I’m grateful that someone else has.

And I don’t disagree with Maggie, I just don’t think there’s any need to shout. On the issue of Kyle shitface Payne, I think we are all on the same side.

Comment by Debs

Can I just make the point here that every single sex offender I’ve ever talked to was ‘in denial’. They either a) denied they’d done anything at all or b)said it wasn’t a sex offence because the victims ‘consented’ and wanted it to happen – we’re talking paedophiles here.

This is extremely common – and one of the reasons it is nigh near impossible for probation services etc to work with sex offenders, they just won’t acknowlege they’ve done anything wrong. Of course they know on some level that they’re talking absolute bullshit, but that doesn’t stop them excusing their behaviour to themselves and everyone else. This guy is surely just an extreme version of that, and his ‘anti porn/anti rape’ stance is just a way of distancing him from himself.

Comment by polly styrene

Polly- nail on head! I think you’re absolutely right on this. And I also agree with you saying that men should not be in these services which help female victims of male violence. Quite frankly, if a man is genuine in wanting to stop rape, he will not be diving into listen to the details of attacks, but instead he will be challenging his fellow men to change their behaviour, and calling them on their violence.

Comment by Laurelin

Also if a man really feels a calling to help victims of sexual violence (eg because of personal experience) – why not work with male victims? I really can’t imagine any woman feeling comfortable talking to a male counsellor anyway, since it’s hard enough to talk at all for most women – you get a lot of silent calls on a rape crisis line.

Comment by polly styrene

I agree Polly–there are a host of other activities one can do wrt helping end violence without being the one to personally engage with the victim. If a guy’s interest is simply in doing that I’d say his heart/head isn’t in the right place. And that his knowledge is too limited anyway given how triggering men can be for someone who’s just walked away from 16 years of abuse and knows no other world.

Comment by pisaquaririse

” I’m interested in what Ren’s doing to make sure this doesn’t all blow over and get forgotten about in a few days, which is no doubt what Mr Payne is hoping will happen.”

Yes and to be fair, there are several bloggers and commenter’s doing the same thing and part of my point about Maggie was that *she was doing that as well*.
And that she was alluding to another point, which other bloggers/commenters have pointed out–one which is huge: Kyle is not special. Men film other women without their consent and upload the videos all the time. When we treat this like a Special Day in patriarchy we misrepresent the issue.

Comment by pisaquaririse

Men’s mags like Nuts and Zoo (and I’m sure loads of US equivalents) just treat this kind of thing as some huge joke in actual fact. My friend told me a story about someone’s sixteen year old brother who was using his mobile phone to film ‘up skirt shots’ – an idea he’d got from Lads Mags, so he thought it was perfectly acceptable behaviour

Comment by polly styrene

she was alluding to another point, which other bloggers/commenters have pointed out–one which is huge: Kyle is not special. Men film other women without their consent and upload the videos all the time. When we treat this like a Special Day in patriarchy we misrepresent the issue.

Exactly, Pisaquari. And most of those men who do this do not even care about feminism. I’ve made my point.

Thank you so much for standing up for me, sister. 🙂

Comment by Maggie Hays

pisaquarise: Noted, and yes, I actually agree — it seems to be a fad now for people to film themselves abusing others. Rapes on video, stonings caught on cell phones. It’s terribly creepy.

And — everyone lace up your skates for the new ice rink in hell — I agree 100% with polly styrene on the denial part. I too initially read Kyle as someone who is in denial about his own behavior. Often a part of denial is vehemently condemning other people for doing exactly what one is doing oneself.

Comment by Trin

Hey, pisaquarise, I do not mean at all to interrupt the thread, but I wanted to invite you to my new blog:

http://rychousmama.wordpress.com

It’s barely a day old, but I will be adding new posts to it probably every few days 🙂

Comment by Lara

Hi! Author of the news post about Payne’s guilty plea. While Storm Lake is not close by, I’ve been considering attending the sentencing hearing. It would be interesting, I think, to see who shows up and who speaks.

I’ll have to admit that psychologically, I can’t figure Payne out at all. I cannot believe he is still blogging as if none of this ever happened. It’s almost past the point of sick… maybe delusional.

Any any event, thanks for the link love. I’ve enjoyed reading all the comments.

Comment by Lynda Waddington

Welcome Lynda.

I am certainly not within driving distance of Storm Lake though I agree it would be interesting to see how the whole hearing unfolds.
If you go, and if you have the time, I would be very interested in knowing the outcome(s).
Please feel free to leave a comment here or shoot me an e-mail message.

As for figuring out Kyle’s actions I don’t know that I can mystify them too much. He is a white male exercising power through lies over women. I will encounter several of these when I run errands today.
That he continued blogging and carrying on as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened doesn’t confuse me too much either. Men are accustomed to getting away with their anti-woman behavior. He may very well be delusional but I’ve come to believe most men are.

I am that level of cynic. 🙂

(did I link to you?)
Glad you’ve enjoyed your read–come again.

Comment by pisaquaririse

I note Mr Payne has now posted a ‘statement’ on his blog.

To summarise, and save the eyes/sanity/computers of others (because I was sorely tempted to smash my monitor with a brick) the gist of it is this.

1. My action was inexplicable, I just did it for no reason that even I know, it just happened.
2. I felt really, really sorry for myself and wanted to die
3. I’m sure you feel really sorry for me now as well, it wasn’t my fault honest guv, I’m mentally ill.

And to save me the trouble of replying to Mr Payne on his blog:

F*** off eh Kyle, there’s a good chap.

Comment by polly styrene

Damn, I never found this blog til now but your bit about men celebrating divisions in the women’s movement really hit me hard. There’s nothing that pisses me off so much. When I tell a guy that the word “chick” is degrading and sexist, I don’t need to hear his non-justification bullshit that “other women don’t think it’s a big deal.” doesn’t fucking matter about what differences exist between women, a guy is not qualified to decide what impact his privilege has on a group he’s not a part of.

Comment by Sasha




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